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Ep. 71 - Quiz the Hosts Lightning Round! | Favorite Fasting Window, Favorite Fast-Breaking Food, Frustrating Set Points | How to decide when to do a longer fast? | Free One Meal a Day OMAD Intermittent Fasting Plan

In this episode, Dr. Scott and Tommy depart from the usual show format to quiz each other on some of their favorite common fasting questions. They tap into their fasting experience to explain their thought process behind when to do longer fasts, favorite meals to break a fast, and more!

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Fasting For Life Ep. 71: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix

Fasting For Life Ep. 71: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

Dr. Scott Watier:
Hello, I'm Dr. Scott Watier,

Tommy Welling:
And I'm Tommy Welling, and you're listening to the Fasting for Life podcast, and

Dr. Scott Watier:
This podcast is about using fasting as a tool to regain your health, achieve ultimate wellness and live the life you truly deserve.

Tommy Welling:
Each episode is a short conversation on a single topic with immediate, actionable steps. We cover everything from fat loss on health and wellness to the science of lifestyle design.

Dr. Scott Watier:
We started fasting for life because of how fasting has transformed our lives, and we hope to share the tools that we have learned

Along the way.

Dr. Scott Watier:
Hey, everyone, Dr. Scott here, I want to hop on real quick before we start with today's episode and let you know that our next 10 day challenge event registration link is live. It is found in the show notes for the dates and additional information. You can also go to the Fasting for life dotcom forward slash live. That is the fasting for life dot com forward slash live. And now to today's episode. Hey, everyone, welcome to the Fasting for Life podcast. My name is Dr. Scott Watier, and I'm here, as always, with my good friend and colleague, Tommy Welling. Good afternoon to you, sir. Hey, Scott. How are you doing? Greitzer ready to have a good in-depth conversation today. This was a email that came in from one of the listeners with a specific question about a specific subset of disease process in the body that affects the liver. And we'll go into that in just a second. So we're going to go over a few research articles. We're going to talk about, you know, why this is important, why this is something that we feel the need to talk about, how it relates to health and weight loss. And most importantly, we're going to end the episode with very specific outcomes that you can do to make sure that you do not end up as one of the statistics that relates to non-alcoholic fatty liver disease or an a f l d mouthful.

Tommy Welling:
Wow. Yeah, it really is. And, you know, we see a lot of misinformation about this and a lot of kind of misunderstanding. I know it it had been kind of misquoted to me for for a long time. And some of the the conclusions and what the research actually shows and how to prevent and reverse this are somewhat counterintuitive, actually.

Dr. Scott Watier:
Yeah, when the first question came in through through email, my first reaction was, well, the question was, can fasting help with this? And there's a lot of things that fasting can do to help the body balance out. And just a quick couple of Google searches of NAFLD, you'll get you know, you'll get the typical Medscape med line. What's the other one? WebMD. Some definitions will say there's really no known cause, but there is a known cause. And we're going to talk about how to avoid that. But the reason why this is important from a metabolic health or long term health perspective is that the three categories of people that typically have this, which is now twenty five percent of the United States, and it's increasing at a rate that will make it the number one cause of liver disease in the country. Hepatitis numbers are going down. Alcohol, there's always going to be some sadly enough, some component of liver disease due to alcohol and alcoholism. But the liver disease numbers are are up to twenty five percent of Americans. And comes with that is obesity, type two diabetes. And once you have those, you're now in a category of having a higher chance of cardiovascular issues, lipid dyslipidemia, high cholesterol, hydrochloride, et cetera. Right. So the reason we feel like it's important to talk about is because the cause of this, which is hard to find, like you alluded to, Tommy, comes down to two main things, which is fructose and glucose.

Tommy Welling:
Yeah. And just just even starting with the name of it is almost kind of misleading because a lot of people, like you said, twenty five percent of the population has has a degree of non-alcoholic fatty liver disease, but they may not have even heard this this term used when they got the bloodwork back or things were being spoken about in a doctor's office. And that's that's kind of part of the issue, too, because this is an accumulation of fat in the liver where it shouldn't be holding on to the fat. And typically what that looks like is is, like you said, dyslipidemia, LDL and HDL get get thrown off. Triglycerides are on the rise. And a number of other things that, again, don't always have this term associated with it.

Dr. Scott Watier:
Yeah, it's not something that you'll be told your your cholesterol is off, but it's it takes a while to have the fatty liver diagnosis. Your liver enzymes will be off. And this is something that I started to notice over the years for me with my insulin resistance, my weight gain when I was trying to do everything right, I was tracking, I was working out, etc. I just could not figure out why my liver ends on Jaroff. I wasn't eating fast food. I wasn't just didn't make any sense, but I was on my way to having this diagnosis. So it kind of like almost stays under the radar. And it's interesting. Because you just said something there that fat is not supposed to be in your liver, fat is supposed to be stored in your fat cells like your adipose tissue. Right. So there's three sources of fat. We'll talk about that in one second. One other thing, in terms of the increase that I forgot to mention was there's a study out of The Lancet in 2014 from they looked at in the United Kingdom from 1998 to 2010, there was a 10 times increase in hospitalizations due to fatty liver disease. And, you know, there's a whole wide range of symptoms, you know, fatigue, stiff liver, digestive issues. There's a whole bunch of different stuff. But it's very it's not the first place that you go a lot of times. So it's something that we felt was important to talk about after especially after the question was posed because fasting and, you know, kind of how we go into a little bit of science is going to is going to be a really good way to make sure that you never end up in this position or even having to ever think about this.

Tommy Welling:
Yeah, and a point that you made earlier about about the carbohydrates and how they play such a pivotal role in this and that that gets at another part of the kind of counterintuitive aspect of fatty liver disease is, is how important those carbohydrates are in both the development of the disease as well as potentially the reversal of it as well. Right.

Dr. Scott Watier:
Yeah, so to break it down one step farther from there, and I love the way you said reversal because it's absolutely reversible. So, you know, Dr. Fong, who was the book that you first read and then the place that I started when it came to fasting absolutely says and I'm not quoting him here, but that it's it's one of the cheapest, most readily treatable things out there. You don't need to be hospitalized for have made your doctor's supervision for like your body is going to naturally do it. The liver is one of those magical, you know, spots in the body that can regenerate. It can regrow. Right. You can donate a portion of your liver like it has the ability to regenerate. So no matter if you're looking at a couple of years looking at a little bit abnormal blood work or you're you're 40 years down the line with this, with Type two diabetes, obesity and heart disease and other comorbidities, the cool thing is that it's it's it's undoable. It's reversible. You need to go a little bit deeper. You know, fat cells, like we mentioned, are not supposed to be in the in the liver, but it's due to an overabundance of one of the three sources. And then I want to go into Tommy after that, the effects of fructose and glucose. We'll talk about high fructose foods, carbohydrates, and then we'll go over the research and some action steps. But the three sources are going to be coming for fat in your liver. The three main sources, I should say, or the I should say only three only sources excuse me, in a normal liver are going to be the three categories are our new Denovo, Libre Genesis.

Dr. Scott Watier:
So new fat, you're going to have plasma, fatty acids or triglycerides that are coming from your bloodstream and then from your a dietary component or from your meals. But what a misconception out there. And you talked about this is a lot of people think diet fat in the diet is going to turn into fat in the body or a fatty liver. Right. And that's not true. About five percent of the of of the fat in the liver is or the three one of the three sources is only about five percent of that. The fifty two percent in a normal liver is from the plasma and then 10 percent is from the formation of new fat where I know I kind of made that really convoluted. So I'll do it one more time. In a normal liver, 10 percent comes from new fat formation. Denovo like Regenesis point fifty two percent comes from the plasma stuff floating around your bloodstream and then five percent comes from meals or dietary sources. But in NAFLD, non-alcoholic fatty liver disease, there's a two point three increase in the formation of new fat. And then the there's a decrease in the sources from the bloodstream. But then the dietary component kind of stays the same. So where is this coming from? Well, it's coming from two main sources, which is what's hard to find out there, which is fructose and glucose.

Tommy Welling:
Yeah. And just the fact that that you mentioned the the fat not making you fat. And I feel like being a product of the 80s and 90s. And I remember that I remember the things in the pantry like the snack wells and the low fat cookies and things like that. Ritz crackers. Right. And yeah, just just tons and tons of crackers because they were they were looked at like like a better snack because they were low fat during the time. And luckily the tides have kind of changed. But all that began kind of in the late 70s, I believe, and kind of hit a peak in the 80s and 90s. But that's still on a lot of people's minds where it can be tough to mentally get past the hole. Well, it's the fats that we brought in weren't weren't the issue here. Like you said, the carbohydrates are what start to back up the liver and especially the process fructose and and how that has to be processed within the liver because nothing else in the body can can process those fructose molecules and and how that leads to actually fatty liver disease.

Dr. Scott Watier:
Yeah, that was that was a key point right there, so fructose cannot be used or processed anywhere else in the body, glucose can be used in processed and absorbed in your skeletal muscles and in your liver. Right. So there's a lot of other places your brain can use glucose, et cetera. But fructose has been shown to have a six times increase in that Denovo light Biogenesis or that new fat formation. And then that turns into like almost like a little fibrous component of your liver where you have stiffness, you'll have that that build up or that almost like a calcification if you want to think about it that way. I'm sure that's not the correct physiological term, but like that fibrotic kind of hardness to it. Yeah, the hardening of it. So fructose is a six times increase in that Denovo genesis. So let's talk about where those sources of fructose come from. And when you think about fructose, a lot of people immediately go to fruit. So I'm just going to say this right now, fruit is good for you. Fruit has a natural component to it. Your body knows what to do to it. There's a fiber component. So we're not talking about cutting out fruit here. What we're talking about is cutting out the other sources of fructose that you may not know that are out there. And specifically a lot of the prepackaged foods, even things like breads, will have forms or derivatives of something called high fructose corn syrup, which is literally a combination of fructose and glucose. But there's also things like soft drinks. I just want to go through this list and then kind of talk about the carbohydrate side of things as well.

Tommy Welling:
Yeah, the more the more concentrated the form of it and the more of it is the fructose like the the pure engineered kind, the the worse the effect on on the liver in a in a much quicker fashion. So when you start concentrating it down to make it into this, this really discussed syrup so that you can use a drop of it to start sweetening things like crackers and cookies and other packaged foods or even like spaghetti sauces and things like that. That's that's when the effects get that much that much worse, that much faster.

Dr. Scott Watier:
Yeah. Let's talk about the top of the list, too. So fruit juices, right. So you might be thinking my kids fruit juices like apple juice. Grape juice. Right. But we're not talking about squeezing Hohmann oranges, but there's a one here that's really big, which is the naked juices. There's a naked juice, it's a green machine smoothie, and it has 30 grams of fructose per 16 ounce serving. So we're talking about a huge amount, like nine teaspoons, nine teaspoons per little bottle. So you're like, oh, I'm going to get this juice. It'll be better for me.

Tommy Welling:
It's marketed as a as a healthy kind of juice, too.

Dr. Scott Watier:
That's a common misconception. We know sugary soft drinks like colas, those types of things. A lot of people know that a couple other hidden sources, like dried fruits, like dried cranberries, dried figs, those types of things, they typically have a higher fructose component. And it's not from the fruit itself. It's from the addition of the sweeteners. So there's a lot of if you flip it over and you see dried cranberries, you're probably going to see a couple other ingredients there as well. Things like honey, honey, as a high fructose corn component, sweetened fruit yogurts like the yogurts that I grew up on, like strawberry blueberry yogurts, you know, desserts, prepackaged desserts, things you buy out of the bakeries, even fast food like whoppers and Burger King and those types of things. Never mind the additional, which is like putting on the ketchups and the barbecue sauces and the basil pesto and all that different types of stuff also has fructose in it. And another big category is, is salad dressings up to 12 percent fructose and those as well. So those are the foods that you want to avoid, you know, bananas and pears. Yes, but we're not we're not we're not worried about, you know, having massive problems and diabetes and non-alcoholic fatty liver disease by eating too many bananas. Right. Like that would be yummy bananas. You'd have to eat, right. Like so no, we want to avoid the high fructose corn syrup and those forms of fructose. If you are trying to make sure that your liver is in a healthy state and you if you do have a concern about NAFLD, that those are that's one place you can start.

Tommy Welling:
Yeah, I think those are those are good points. And like you said, no one ever got NAFLD from eating bananas or pears. But and if it's if it's something that you're you want to be you want to just remove all of those things off of the list. But you you really want to pair every once in a while, just put a little bit more time in between the pair. Yeah.

Dr. Scott Watier:
Yeah, yes. Fast. Right. We'll get a little better. This is what. Fasting for life. Right. I will get there. So that's not something that we control a lot for my daughter at her, her her school is, you know, a lot of our snacks and we go to Thrive Market. We go to sprouts, we buy the stuff that's minimally process. It has natural ingredients that doesn't. Have those artificial stuff in it because they are much, much, much sweeter, so if you have a high fructose corn syrup and you're putting that into the body and then only has to be processed in the liver, you've got a six times increase in your new fat production, which can throw off your triglycerides and your cholesterol numbers and all that kind of stuff. So we're going to talk about a cool study with ATF that shows that ADF has a really dramatic effect on decreasing those. And there's a couple of studies we'll share to the other side of this is the and this will segway into that study, Tommy, that you mentioned about the the comparison between the low fat, low carb, high fat diet. Right. And I don't remember the other categories.

Dr. Scott Watier:
You're going to fill it in here in just a second. But the the carbohydrate content, when we eat carbs, that turns into glucose, which also can form or contribute to the fatty liver situation. But that research article was really interesting. So I don't want to go into that now. Everyone want to hop on here real quick and let you know the next challenge event registration page is live the next 10 day. Fasting for life ramp up challenge is live. Registration is open. You can go to the show notes for the dates in the link to get registered. You can also go to the fasting for life dot com forward slash live and tell me real quick so we don't take away from today's episode why we created these challenges. And the results we've been seeing was very intentional. You and I, when we started fasting, we were looking for support. We're looking for people to talk to. We're looking for answers and research and guidance. And really, we packaged it all into one to tell everybody real quick what's on the inside and what's waiting for them.

Tommy Welling:
Yeah, during this challenge, I mean, the format that we figured out that that works so well for people, no matter where you are and your fasting journey, whether you're new to fasting or your experience faster, maybe you're stuck in a plateau or looking to reenergize the way that we've put together the schedule and the education and the resources along this ten day timeline has just been incredible and delivering amazing results to so many people so far. So it's it's going to be another incredible challenge. And I can't wait to get started. So we'll see you on the inside. And let's get back to today's episode. Yeah. You know, in where the more glucose comes into play as well is because, you know, as we we started taking these foods, we we have a mixture of sugars usually that are coming in at the same time. It's not usually just fructose or just glucose. Right.

Dr. Scott Watier:
But as we are having a PET scan or a fast or glucose test or you're. Yeah, other than that,

Tommy Welling:
No one's doing those for fun. Right. Right. But when you're eating a meal in it and it's contributing to to the intake of these of these sugar molecules, you know, the body wants to keep the blood sugar in a certain range. And so it starts to process it. But again, the glucose being easy to process throughout the body, but then the fructose just having a terrible effect on the liver, just going into that that lipo genesis that that that mode immediately.

Dr. Scott Watier:
Yeah, I, I like the framing of one of these. So when you when you're in this category of worrying about metabolic conditions, type two diabetes, obesity, heart disease, non-alcoholic fatty liver disease, those types of things, you want to be metabolically healthy. Right? So if we're looking at some things we can do to improve that, there was a cool study out of the BMC Gastroenterology and it looked at effects of ADF, which is alternate day fasting. So you eat, you have a normal eating window one day. And we did a podcast back in the day comparing Mohmad versus ADF and some people for ADF versus Mohmad. We I prefer Mohmad versus ADF because I don't really like eating breakfast. Right. So I just I typically don't eat until midday or later in the day or now, you know, now that I've adopted home and it's typically later in the evening with the family. So but this this study looked specifically at dyslipidemia in patients with non-alcoholic fatty liver disease, and it showed a huge improvement. Total cholesterol significantly decreased, decreased in the ADF group compared to the time restricted feeding group. But both groups. Right, achieved a significant reduction in serum triglycerides after 12 weeks, which was really, really cool to see that the the fasting was taking care of the downstream effect of non-alcoholic fatty liver disease, which could be elevated triglycerides, because once you start breaking down the fat and the liver, these are going to be released into the bloodstream. So fasting is actually going to have a positive effect on decreasing the higher elevated numbers over time, which I thought was really a really cool outcome.

Tommy Welling:
Yeah, and it didn't take that long to do it either. Weeks. Yeah. And there were there were positive results even as quickly as four weeks when they started actually looking at the at the numbers changing. So I mean, that's, that's, that's really, really good. It's not something that's taking a as as long as it took to develop it, to reverse it. So, again, going back to just just understanding that that you can kind of do a U-turn on this wherever you are kind of on on the road towards this, whether the the blood works, just just looking a little bit off or like you said, it's been it's been three or four decades and looking bad for a while. You can still make that U-turn and it doesn't take all that long to do it.

Dr. Scott Watier:
Yeah, that's that's why I love where you foreshadowed the reverse early on in the conversation today. This is another article out of the Journal of Nutrients in 20 19 effects a periodic fasting on fatty liver index. So they categorized excuse me, a large group of individuals in the study that had that were on the fatty liver index scale. And this was a cool outcome. And it it showed that after fasting, now periodic fasting, this was not strict fasting. Windows were sticking to a fasting window day after day after day. Right, Tommy? So it was kind of hard to even define what they talked about as periodic fasting, but a shortened window of eating over a set number of days, anywhere between eight to eight to looks like 12 to 13 days. And then there was obviously all the way from six, all the way up to thirty eight. But body mass index decreased. They lost greater than five percent body weight after fasting nearly half of the highest ranked fatty liver index. So the people highest on the ranking in the highest risk category, they shifted down an entire category in that short amount of time. And the improvement also correlated directly with the number of fasting days with the magnitude of the decrease of the body mass index. So literally the periodic fasting led to weight reduction, which led to significant decreases on that risk scale. So the more days you fasted, the more time you fasted the direct correlation between your change in category. So you went from high risk to low risk. You went down an entire category, your BMI reduced, and it was cool to see that people were coming or removing themselves from the fatty liver index. And these were all people that did there was a mix of type two and non type two. So you don't have to have type two to have fatty liver. So it's cool to see that you may be sitting here listening to the article and this doesn't really apply to me. Well, fasting will prevent you from ever being in either one of these categories.

Tommy Welling:
Yeah. Yeah. Like like fixing it before. Before the problems.

Dr. Scott Watier:
Yeah. Right now it's on your car. Yeah. Dental appointments, brushing your teeth, all those all of those fun little analogies.

Tommy Welling:
Right. Right. It really is. Because what I heard from you for the results was basically that it was it was time dependent. The longer that you were on the fasting protocol, the more reversal of the disease process that actually happened. And it was it was interesting because the method that they used was was basically allowing the subjects to be on an extended longer fast and to go almost kind of as long as they wanted to on that. Now, they had the option to to intake a little bit. And so most of them were taking in somewhere between two to five hundred calories per day. But going along that kind of like four days to to I think 13, 14 days and and just seeing the results growing over over time for those extended fast. I mean, this is this is really cool. And I I'm going to be reflecting on this article the next time I'm doing a longer fast as well.

Dr. Scott Watier:
Yeah, I love that perspective and I like so that that two to five hundred calorie thing could. There's fast mimicking diets out there. Right. And ADF or the five to excuse me allows you to have eight, four, five two. I can never remember that allows you to have some some protocols allow you to have five hundred calories or less on your fasting days. Yeah. So it's different. There's different people to find fasting. One hundred different ways. And we've talked a lot about that over the podcast episodes of how we define it, how it's worked for us. And we've heard a lot about you guys, how you you just kind of make it fit your life, which is why we love fasting so much. This last article on me, which I alluded to earlier, not very clearly. So I want to make sure I come back to it. Is this is the one that is the treatment of NAFLD with intermittent calorie restriction or low carb, high fat diet. Yeah. So there is a cool distinction here between the low carb, high fat group and the. Five two diet group, which is the fasting group, and I thought it was a cool outcome because of the the actual physical effect on the liver.

Tommy Welling:
Yeah, this one was really cool because those are two two really good potential approaches. But we haven't seen them kind of put them both together to to compare the results. But they both had a 50 percent reduction in the actual fatty component of the liver. So they both had basically equal results for for helping reverse the the fatty liver disease process. But what I also thought was was really cool was that the five two had its own set of distinct benefits over the low carb, high fat diet because what the five two was able to do was actually lower the LDL levels and improve the liver stiffness measurement and was was tolerated to a greater degree for longer periods of time in the test subjects. So it was easier to stick to and it had additional benefits that the low carb, high fat didn't provide.

Dr. Scott Watier:
And we know that we've talked about in the past that low carb, high fat diets, low carb diets and people with diabetics. There's multiple studies out there that show that the adherence to that diet is difficult for long periods of time and that people at the two year mark typically go back and gain a small percentage of weight and end up back where they started or even in a worse position. So, yes, this is a fasting podcast. Yes, we condone fasting lifestyle, insulin friendly lifestyle. It's how we live. It's how we've gotten our life back, our lives back. But I loved that. Never mind the fact that this study showed when both of those groups compared to the the control group, that there was a 50 percent reduction in the fatty component of the liver in 12 weeks, 50 percent reduction. I just want to make sure that, like the importance of we're going to give you three things that you can do. And we've already talked about them, but we're going to summarize them here as we close out the episode to make sure that your liver is healthy and functioning because it is kind of important, right? It is the detoxification center of the body that, you know, 50 percent reduction in 12 weeks. So if it is something that you're concerned with, my my answer is absolutely fasting. Low carb, high fat diets used in conjunction can can be a very attainable way to reverse or avoid the situation.

Tommy Welling:
Yeah. You know, and we hear from a lot of people who who who say, you know, I don't really have a whole lot of weight to lose. You know, maybe I could I could stand to lose maybe 10 or 15 pounds or maybe even not that much. But what I'm noticing now is that my my blood is getting a little more a little out of whack where it always used to use the track. Well, but now things aren't quite looking perfect anymore, but I don't really know what to do about it. I don't want to get on medication for it. It's not that bad. Right? You know, things like that where it's kind of this in-between. But what I'm seeing here from the results from all these is that a little bit of fasting goes a long way. And like we talk about just kind of restoring that balance, it's it's very possible. And it doesn't it doesn't have to take all that long either or be very difficult to do.

Dr. Scott Watier:
Yeah, it's very hard because there's not a lot of symptoms that come along with, you know, there might be some stuff on bloodwork. You might have some fatigue, pain or weight loss, resistance, you know, some weight loss resistance goes hand in hand with how we ended up here, insulin resistance, weight loss, resistance and how we can undo those things. So to wrap up today's episode, what can you do? What are the action steps? So, first of all, is to limit the intake of fructose and all of those hidden sources that we talked about. You can limit your refined and processed carbohydrates, which turn directly into glucose or sugar. So, you know, more Whole Foods sources if you're going to have them carbohydrate, sweet potatoes, whole grains like those type of thing, if you do need some carbohydrate in your diet. Right. As you're as because we know low carb is super low carb is hard to stick to long term. It's OK to have the pasta dinner, the pizza night with the family. Right. We need to fit that into our life. Right. And then incorporating the fasting component is really going to get you there. So if you're new to fasting, if you've been fasting for a while, hopefully this adds a cool perspective of additional benefits to fasting that don't relate to weight loss specifically, but more about the health component, which is really why I stopped eating that day. You told me back on Father's Day and do things like now just stop eating, right? So with that time. Any final thoughts as we wrap up?

Tommy Welling:
I just I just think it's it's a really cool point of encouragement for for what we're doing. And, you know, if you if you feel like you've been kind of dabbling or dipping your toes in, jump in.

Dr. Scott Watier:
Yep. Best way to do that. Go to our website, Deforesting for livestock dot com Watier, the fasting for Life Dotcom. You can sign up for our Fast Start guide. It is a six step guide to show you how to put fasting into your day to day life. It is focused on the one meal a day approach. We've gotten so much positive feedback from people that have had headed there. You can sign up for our newsletter as well and get our emails. We also appreciate five star reviews on Apple that tells Apple that we're doing something right, that people like us and that they're listening. So we appreciate all five star reviews. Tommy, as always, sir, appreciate you. And we'll talk soon.

Tommy Welling:
Thanks. Bye. So you've heard today's episode and you may be wondering where do I start? Head on over to be fasting for life dotcom and sign up for our newsletter where you'll receive fasting tips and strategies to maximize results and fit fasting into your day to day life. While you're there, download

Dr. Scott Watier:
Your free Fast Start guide to get started today. Don't forget to subscribe on iTunes, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Make sure to leave us a five star review and we'll be back next week with another episode of Fasting for Life.

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Fasting For Life Ep. 71

Dr. Scott Watier: [00:00:01] Hello, I'm Dr. Scott Watier,

Tommy Welling: [00:00:03] And I'm Tommy Welling, and you're listening to the Fasting for Life podcast, and

Dr. Scott Watier: [00:00:08] This podcast is about using fasting as a tool to regain your health, achieve ultimate wellness and live the life you truly deserve.

Tommy Welling: [00:00:15] Each episode is a short conversation on a single topic with immediate, actionable steps. We cover everything from fat loss on health and wellness to the science of lifestyle design.

Dr. Scott Watier: [00:00:25] We started fasting for life because of how fasting has transformed our lives, and we hope to share the tools that we have learned

[00:00:30] Along the way.

Dr. Scott Watier: [00:00:41] Hey, everyone, Dr. Scott here, I want to hop on real quick before we start with today's episode and let you know that our next 10 day challenge event registration link is live. It is found in the show notes for the dates and additional information. You can also go to the Fasting for life dotcom forward slash live. That is the fasting for life dot com forward slash live. And now to today's episode. Hey, everyone, welcome to the Fasting for Life podcast. My name is Dr. Scott Watier, and I'm here, as always, with my good friend and colleague, Tommy Welling. Good afternoon to you, sir. Hey, Scott. How are you doing? Greitzer ready to have a good in-depth conversation today. This was a email that came in from one of the listeners with a specific question about a specific subset of disease process in the body that affects the liver. And we'll go into that in just a second. So we're going to go over a few research articles. We're going to talk about, you know, why this is important, why this is something that we feel the need to talk about, how it relates to health and weight loss. And most importantly, we're going to end the episode with very specific outcomes that you can do to make sure that you do not end up as one of the statistics that relates to non-alcoholic fatty liver disease or an a f l d mouthful.

Tommy Welling: [00:02:08] Wow. Yeah, it really is. And, you know, we see a lot of misinformation about this and a lot of kind of misunderstanding. I know it it had been kind of misquoted to me for for a long time. And some of the the conclusions and what the research actually shows and how to prevent and reverse this are somewhat counterintuitive, actually.

Dr. Scott Watier: [00:02:33] Yeah, when the first question came in through through email, my first reaction was, well, the question was, can fasting help with this? And there's a lot of things that fasting can do to help the body balance out. And just a quick couple of Google searches of NAFLD, you'll get you know, you'll get the typical Medscape med line. What's the other one? WebMD. Some definitions will say there's really no known cause, but there is a known cause. And we're going to talk about how to avoid that. But the reason why this is important from a metabolic health or long term health perspective is that the three categories of people that typically have this, which is now twenty five percent of the United States, and it's increasing at a rate that will make it the number one cause of liver disease in the country. Hepatitis numbers are going down. Alcohol, there's always going to be some sadly enough, some component of liver disease due to alcohol and alcoholism. But the liver disease numbers are are up to twenty five percent of Americans. And comes with that is obesity, type two diabetes. And once you have those, you're now in a category of having a higher chance of cardiovascular issues, lipid dyslipidemia, high cholesterol, hydrochloride, et cetera. Right. So the reason we feel like it's important to talk about is because the cause of this, which is hard to find, like you alluded to, Tommy, comes down to two main things, which is fructose and glucose.

Tommy Welling: [00:04:15] Yeah. And just just even starting with the name of it is almost kind of misleading because a lot of people, like you said, twenty five percent of the population has has a degree of non-alcoholic fatty liver disease, but they may not have even heard this this term used when they got the bloodwork back or things were being spoken about in a doctor's office. And that's that's kind of part of the issue, too, because this is an accumulation of fat in the liver where it shouldn't be holding on to the fat. And typically what that looks like is is, like you said, dyslipidemia, LDL and HDL get get thrown off. Triglycerides are on the rise. And a number of other things that, again, don't always have this term associated with it.

Dr. Scott Watier: [00:05:02] Yeah, it's not something that you'll be told your your cholesterol is off, but it's it takes a while to have the fatty liver diagnosis. Your liver enzymes will be off. And this is something that I started to notice over the years for me with my insulin resistance, my weight gain when I was trying to do everything right, I was tracking, I was working out, etc. I just could not figure out why my liver ends on Jaroff. I wasn't eating fast food. I wasn't just didn't make any sense, but I was on my way to having this diagnosis. So it kind of like almost stays under the radar. And it's interesting. Because you just said something there that fat is not supposed to be in your liver, fat is supposed to be stored in your fat cells like your adipose tissue. Right. So there's three sources of fat. We'll talk about that in one second. One other thing, in terms of the increase that I forgot to mention was there's a study out of The Lancet in 2014 from they looked at in the United Kingdom from 1998 to 2010, there was a 10 times increase in hospitalizations due to fatty liver disease. And, you know, there's a whole wide range of symptoms, you know, fatigue, stiff liver, digestive issues. There's a whole bunch of different stuff. But it's very it's not the first place that you go a lot of times. So it's something that we felt was important to talk about after especially after the question was posed because fasting and, you know, kind of how we go into a little bit of science is going to is going to be a really good way to make sure that you never end up in this position or even having to ever think about this.

Tommy Welling: [00:06:37] Yeah, and a point that you made earlier about about the carbohydrates and how they play such a pivotal role in this and that that gets at another part of the kind of counterintuitive aspect of fatty liver disease is, is how important those carbohydrates are in both the development of the disease as well as potentially the reversal of it as well. Right.

Dr. Scott Watier: [00:07:02] Yeah, so to break it down one step farther from there, and I love the way you said reversal because it's absolutely reversible. So, you know, Dr. Fong, who was the book that you first read and then the place that I started when it came to fasting absolutely says and I'm not quoting him here, but that it's it's one of the cheapest, most readily treatable things out there. You don't need to be hospitalized for have made your doctor's supervision for like your body is going to naturally do it. The liver is one of those magical, you know, spots in the body that can regenerate. It can regrow. Right. You can donate a portion of your liver like it has the ability to regenerate. So no matter if you're looking at a couple of years looking at a little bit abnormal blood work or you're you're 40 years down the line with this, with Type two diabetes, obesity and heart disease and other comorbidities, the cool thing is that it's it's it's undoable. It's reversible. You need to go a little bit deeper. You know, fat cells, like we mentioned, are not supposed to be in the in the liver, but it's due to an overabundance of one of the three sources. And then I want to go into Tommy after that, the effects of fructose and glucose. We'll talk about high fructose foods, carbohydrates, and then we'll go over the research and some action steps. But the three sources are going to be coming for fat in your liver. The three main sources, I should say, or the I should say only three only sources excuse me, in a normal liver are going to be the three categories are our new Denovo, Libre Genesis.

Dr. Scott Watier: [00:08:34] So new fat, you're going to have plasma, fatty acids or triglycerides that are coming from your bloodstream and then from your a dietary component or from your meals. But what a misconception out there. And you talked about this is a lot of people think diet fat in the diet is going to turn into fat in the body or a fatty liver. Right. And that's not true. About five percent of the of of the fat in the liver is or the three one of the three sources is only about five percent of that. The fifty two percent in a normal liver is from the plasma and then 10 percent is from the formation of new fat where I know I kind of made that really convoluted. So I'll do it one more time. In a normal liver, 10 percent comes from new fat formation. Denovo like Regenesis point fifty two percent comes from the plasma stuff floating around your bloodstream and then five percent comes from meals or dietary sources. But in NAFLD, non-alcoholic fatty liver disease, there's a two point three increase in the formation of new fat. And then the there's a decrease in the sources from the bloodstream. But then the dietary component kind of stays the same. So where is this coming from? Well, it's coming from two main sources, which is what's hard to find out there, which is fructose and glucose.

Tommy Welling: [00:09:58] Yeah. And just the fact that that you mentioned the the fat not making you fat. And I feel like being a product of the 80s and 90s. And I remember that I remember the things in the pantry like the snack wells and the low fat cookies and things like that. Ritz crackers. Right. And yeah, just just tons and tons of crackers because they were they were looked at like like a better snack because they were low fat during the time. And luckily the tides have kind of changed. But all that began kind of in the late 70s, I believe, and kind of hit a peak in the 80s and 90s. But that's still on a lot of people's minds where it can be tough to mentally get past the hole. Well, it's the fats that we brought in weren't weren't the issue here. Like you said, the carbohydrates are what start to back up the liver and especially the process fructose and and how that has to be processed within the liver because nothing else in the body can can process those fructose molecules and and how that leads to actually fatty liver disease.

Dr. Scott Watier: [00:11:11] Yeah, that was that was a key point right there, so fructose cannot be used or processed anywhere else in the body, glucose can be used in processed and absorbed in your skeletal muscles and in your liver. Right. So there's a lot of other places your brain can use glucose, et cetera. But fructose has been shown to have a six times increase in that Denovo light Biogenesis or that new fat formation. And then that turns into like almost like a little fibrous component of your liver where you have stiffness, you'll have that that build up or that almost like a calcification if you want to think about it that way. I'm sure that's not the correct physiological term, but like that fibrotic kind of hardness to it. Yeah, the hardening of it. So fructose is a six times increase in that Denovo genesis. So let's talk about where those sources of fructose come from. And when you think about fructose, a lot of people immediately go to fruit. So I'm just going to say this right now, fruit is good for you. Fruit has a natural component to it. Your body knows what to do to it. There's a fiber component. So we're not talking about cutting out fruit here. What we're talking about is cutting out the other sources of fructose that you may not know that are out there. And specifically a lot of the prepackaged foods, even things like breads, will have forms or derivatives of something called high fructose corn syrup, which is literally a combination of fructose and glucose. But there's also things like soft drinks. I just want to go through this list and then kind of talk about the carbohydrate side of things as well.

Tommy Welling: [00:12:42] Yeah, the more the more concentrated the form of it and the more of it is the fructose like the the pure engineered kind, the the worse the effect on on the liver in a in a much quicker fashion. So when you start concentrating it down to make it into this, this really discussed syrup so that you can use a drop of it to start sweetening things like crackers and cookies and other packaged foods or even like spaghetti sauces and things like that. That's that's when the effects get that much that much worse, that much faster.

Dr. Scott Watier: [00:13:16] Yeah. Let's talk about the top of the list, too. So fruit juices, right. So you might be thinking my kids fruit juices like apple juice. Grape juice. Right. But we're not talking about squeezing Hohmann oranges, but there's a one here that's really big, which is the naked juices. There's a naked juice, it's a green machine smoothie, and it has 30 grams of fructose per 16 ounce serving. So we're talking about a huge amount, like nine teaspoons, nine teaspoons per little bottle. So you're like, oh, I'm going to get this juice. It'll be better for me.

Tommy Welling: [00:13:51] It's marketed as a as a healthy kind of juice, too.

Dr. Scott Watier: [00:13:55] That's a common misconception. We know sugary soft drinks like colas, those types of things. A lot of people know that a couple other hidden sources, like dried fruits, like dried cranberries, dried figs, those types of things, they typically have a higher fructose component. And it's not from the fruit itself. It's from the addition of the sweeteners. So there's a lot of if you flip it over and you see dried cranberries, you're probably going to see a couple other ingredients there as well. Things like honey, honey, as a high fructose corn component, sweetened fruit yogurts like the yogurts that I grew up on, like strawberry blueberry yogurts, you know, desserts, prepackaged desserts, things you buy out of the bakeries, even fast food like whoppers and Burger King and those types of things. Never mind the additional, which is like putting on the ketchups and the barbecue sauces and the basil pesto and all that different types of stuff also has fructose in it. And another big category is, is salad dressings up to 12 percent fructose and those as well. So those are the foods that you want to avoid, you know, bananas and pears. Yes, but we're not we're not we're not worried about, you know, having massive problems and diabetes and non-alcoholic fatty liver disease by eating too many bananas. Right. Like that would be yummy bananas. You'd have to eat, right. Like so no, we want to avoid the high fructose corn syrup and those forms of fructose. If you are trying to make sure that your liver is in a healthy state and you if you do have a concern about NAFLD, that those are that's one place you can start.

Tommy Welling: [00:15:32] Yeah, I think those are those are good points. And like you said, no one ever got NAFLD from eating bananas or pears. But and if it's if it's something that you're you want to be you want to just remove all of those things off of the list. But you you really want to pair every once in a while, just put a little bit more time in between the pair. Yeah.

Dr. Scott Watier: [00:15:52] Yeah, yes. Fast. Right. We'll get a little better. This is what. Fasting for life. Right. I will get there. So that's not something that we control a lot for my daughter at her, her her school is, you know, a lot of our snacks and we go to Thrive Market. We go to sprouts, we buy the stuff that's minimally process. It has natural ingredients that doesn't. Have those artificial stuff in it because they are much, much, much sweeter, so if you have a high fructose corn syrup and you're putting that into the body and then only has to be processed in the liver, you've got a six times increase in your new fat production, which can throw off your triglycerides and your cholesterol numbers and all that kind of stuff. So we're going to talk about a cool study with ATF that shows that ADF has a really dramatic effect on decreasing those. And there's a couple of studies we'll share to the other side of this is the and this will segway into that study, Tommy, that you mentioned about the the comparison between the low fat, low carb, high fat diet. Right. And I don't remember the other categories.

Dr. Scott Watier: [00:16:50] You're going to fill it in here in just a second. But the the carbohydrate content, when we eat carbs, that turns into glucose, which also can form or contribute to the fatty liver situation. But that research article was really interesting. So I don't want to go into that now. Everyone want to hop on here real quick and let you know the next challenge event registration page is live the next 10 day. Fasting for life ramp up challenge is live. Registration is open. You can go to the show notes for the dates in the link to get registered. You can also go to the fasting for life dot com forward slash live and tell me real quick so we don't take away from today's episode why we created these challenges. And the results we've been seeing was very intentional. You and I, when we started fasting, we were looking for support. We're looking for people to talk to. We're looking for answers and research and guidance. And really, we packaged it all into one to tell everybody real quick what's on the inside and what's waiting for them.

Tommy Welling: [00:17:54] Yeah, during this challenge, I mean, the format that we figured out that that works so well for people, no matter where you are and your fasting journey, whether you're new to fasting or your experience faster, maybe you're stuck in a plateau or looking to reenergize the way that we've put together the schedule and the education and the resources along this ten day timeline has just been incredible and delivering amazing results to so many people so far. So it's it's going to be another incredible challenge. And I can't wait to get started. So we'll see you on the inside. And let's get back to today's episode. Yeah. You know, in where the more glucose comes into play as well is because, you know, as we we started taking these foods, we we have a mixture of sugars usually that are coming in at the same time. It's not usually just fructose or just glucose. Right.

Dr. Scott Watier: [00:18:43] But as we are having a PET scan or a fast or glucose test or you're. Yeah, other than that,

Tommy Welling: [00:18:50] No one's doing those for fun. Right. Right. But when you're eating a meal in it and it's contributing to to the intake of these of these sugar molecules, you know, the body wants to keep the blood sugar in a certain range. And so it starts to process it. But again, the glucose being easy to process throughout the body, but then the fructose just having a terrible effect on the liver, just going into that that lipo genesis that that that mode immediately.

Dr. Scott Watier: [00:19:18] Yeah, I, I like the framing of one of these. So when you when you're in this category of worrying about metabolic conditions, type two diabetes, obesity, heart disease, non-alcoholic fatty liver disease, those types of things, you want to be metabolically healthy. Right? So if we're looking at some things we can do to improve that, there was a cool study out of the BMC Gastroenterology and it looked at effects of ADF, which is alternate day fasting. So you eat, you have a normal eating window one day. And we did a podcast back in the day comparing Mohmad versus ADF and some people for ADF versus Mohmad. We I prefer Mohmad versus ADF because I don't really like eating breakfast. Right. So I just I typically don't eat until midday or later in the day or now, you know, now that I've adopted home and it's typically later in the evening with the family. So but this this study looked specifically at dyslipidemia in patients with non-alcoholic fatty liver disease, and it showed a huge improvement. Total cholesterol significantly decreased, decreased in the ADF group compared to the time restricted feeding group. But both groups. Right, achieved a significant reduction in serum triglycerides after 12 weeks, which was really, really cool to see that the the fasting was taking care of the downstream effect of non-alcoholic fatty liver disease, which could be elevated triglycerides, because once you start breaking down the fat and the liver, these are going to be released into the bloodstream. So fasting is actually going to have a positive effect on decreasing the higher elevated numbers over time, which I thought was really a really cool outcome.

Tommy Welling: [00:20:56] Yeah, and it didn't take that long to do it either. Weeks. Yeah. And there were there were positive results even as quickly as four weeks when they started actually looking at the at the numbers changing. So I mean, that's, that's, that's really, really good. It's not something that's taking a as as long as it took to develop it, to reverse it. So, again, going back to just just understanding that that you can kind of do a U-turn on this wherever you are kind of on on the road towards this, whether the the blood works, just just looking a little bit off or like you said, it's been it's been three or four decades and looking bad for a while. You can still make that U-turn and it doesn't take all that long to do it.

Dr. Scott Watier: [00:21:40] Yeah, that's that's why I love where you foreshadowed the reverse early on in the conversation today. This is another article out of the Journal of Nutrients in 20 19 effects a periodic fasting on fatty liver index. So they categorized excuse me, a large group of individuals in the study that had that were on the fatty liver index scale. And this was a cool outcome. And it it showed that after fasting, now periodic fasting, this was not strict fasting. Windows were sticking to a fasting window day after day after day. Right, Tommy? So it was kind of hard to even define what they talked about as periodic fasting, but a shortened window of eating over a set number of days, anywhere between eight to eight to looks like 12 to 13 days. And then there was obviously all the way from six, all the way up to thirty eight. But body mass index decreased. They lost greater than five percent body weight after fasting nearly half of the highest ranked fatty liver index. So the people highest on the ranking in the highest risk category, they shifted down an entire category in that short amount of time. And the improvement also correlated directly with the number of fasting days with the magnitude of the decrease of the body mass index. So literally the periodic fasting led to weight reduction, which led to significant decreases on that risk scale. So the more days you fasted, the more time you fasted the direct correlation between your change in category. So you went from high risk to low risk. You went down an entire category, your BMI reduced, and it was cool to see that people were coming or removing themselves from the fatty liver index. And these were all people that did there was a mix of type two and non type two. So you don't have to have type two to have fatty liver. So it's cool to see that you may be sitting here listening to the article and this doesn't really apply to me. Well, fasting will prevent you from ever being in either one of these categories.

Tommy Welling: [00:23:55] Yeah. Yeah. Like like fixing it before. Before the problems.

Dr. Scott Watier: [00:24:00] Yeah. Right now it's on your car. Yeah. Dental appointments, brushing your teeth, all those all of those fun little analogies.

Tommy Welling: [00:24:06] Right. Right. It really is. Because what I heard from you for the results was basically that it was it was time dependent. The longer that you were on the fasting protocol, the more reversal of the disease process that actually happened. And it was it was interesting because the method that they used was was basically allowing the subjects to be on an extended longer fast and to go almost kind of as long as they wanted to on that. Now, they had the option to to intake a little bit. And so most of them were taking in somewhere between two to five hundred calories per day. But going along that kind of like four days to to I think 13, 14 days and and just seeing the results growing over over time for those extended fast. I mean, this is this is really cool. And I I'm going to be reflecting on this article the next time I'm doing a longer fast as well.

Dr. Scott Watier: [00:25:04] Yeah, I love that perspective and I like so that that two to five hundred calorie thing could. There's fast mimicking diets out there. Right. And ADF or the five to excuse me allows you to have eight, four, five two. I can never remember that allows you to have some some protocols allow you to have five hundred calories or less on your fasting days. Yeah. So it's different. There's different people to find fasting. One hundred different ways. And we've talked a lot about that over the podcast episodes of how we define it, how it's worked for us. And we've heard a lot about you guys, how you you just kind of make it fit your life, which is why we love fasting so much. This last article on me, which I alluded to earlier, not very clearly. So I want to make sure I come back to it. Is this is the one that is the treatment of NAFLD with intermittent calorie restriction or low carb, high fat diet. Yeah. So there is a cool distinction here between the low carb, high fat group and the. Five two diet group, which is the fasting group, and I thought it was a cool outcome because of the the actual physical effect on the liver.

Tommy Welling: [00:26:20] Yeah, this one was really cool because those are two two really good potential approaches. But we haven't seen them kind of put them both together to to compare the results. But they both had a 50 percent reduction in the actual fatty component of the liver. So they both had basically equal results for for helping reverse the the fatty liver disease process. But what I also thought was was really cool was that the five two had its own set of distinct benefits over the low carb, high fat diet because what the five two was able to do was actually lower the LDL levels and improve the liver stiffness measurement and was was tolerated to a greater degree for longer periods of time in the test subjects. So it was easier to stick to and it had additional benefits that the low carb, high fat didn't provide.

Dr. Scott Watier: [00:27:21] And we know that we've talked about in the past that low carb, high fat diets, low carb diets and people with diabetics. There's multiple studies out there that show that the adherence to that diet is difficult for long periods of time and that people at the two year mark typically go back and gain a small percentage of weight and end up back where they started or even in a worse position. So, yes, this is a fasting podcast. Yes, we condone fasting lifestyle, insulin friendly lifestyle. It's how we live. It's how we've gotten our life back, our lives back. But I loved that. Never mind the fact that this study showed when both of those groups compared to the the control group, that there was a 50 percent reduction in the fatty component of the liver in 12 weeks, 50 percent reduction. I just want to make sure that, like the importance of we're going to give you three things that you can do. And we've already talked about them, but we're going to summarize them here as we close out the episode to make sure that your liver is healthy and functioning because it is kind of important, right? It is the detoxification center of the body that, you know, 50 percent reduction in 12 weeks. So if it is something that you're concerned with, my my answer is absolutely fasting. Low carb, high fat diets used in conjunction can can be a very attainable way to reverse or avoid the situation.

Tommy Welling: [00:28:50] Yeah. You know, and we hear from a lot of people who who who say, you know, I don't really have a whole lot of weight to lose. You know, maybe I could I could stand to lose maybe 10 or 15 pounds or maybe even not that much. But what I'm noticing now is that my my blood is getting a little more a little out of whack where it always used to use the track. Well, but now things aren't quite looking perfect anymore, but I don't really know what to do about it. I don't want to get on medication for it. It's not that bad. Right? You know, things like that where it's kind of this in-between. But what I'm seeing here from the results from all these is that a little bit of fasting goes a long way. And like we talk about just kind of restoring that balance, it's it's very possible. And it doesn't it doesn't have to take all that long either or be very difficult to do.

Dr. Scott Watier: [00:29:42] Yeah, it's very hard because there's not a lot of symptoms that come along with, you know, there might be some stuff on bloodwork. You might have some fatigue, pain or weight loss, resistance, you know, some weight loss resistance goes hand in hand with how we ended up here, insulin resistance, weight loss, resistance and how we can undo those things. So to wrap up today's episode, what can you do? What are the action steps? So, first of all, is to limit the intake of fructose and all of those hidden sources that we talked about. You can limit your refined and processed carbohydrates, which turn directly into glucose or sugar. So, you know, more Whole Foods sources if you're going to have them carbohydrate, sweet potatoes, whole grains like those type of thing, if you do need some carbohydrate in your diet. Right. As you're as because we know low carb is super low carb is hard to stick to long term. It's OK to have the pasta dinner, the pizza night with the family. Right. We need to fit that into our life. Right. And then incorporating the fasting component is really going to get you there. So if you're new to fasting, if you've been fasting for a while, hopefully this adds a cool perspective of additional benefits to fasting that don't relate to weight loss specifically, but more about the health component, which is really why I stopped eating that day. You told me back on Father's Day and do things like now just stop eating, right? So with that time. Any final thoughts as we wrap up?

Tommy Welling: [00:31:09] I just I just think it's it's a really cool point of encouragement for for what we're doing. And, you know, if you if you feel like you've been kind of dabbling or dipping your toes in, jump in.

Dr. Scott Watier: [00:31:21] Yep. Best way to do that. Go to our website, Deforesting for livestock dot com Watier, the fasting for Life Dotcom. You can sign up for our Fast Start guide. It is a six step guide to show you how to put fasting into your day to day life. It is focused on the one meal a day approach. We've gotten so much positive feedback from people that have had headed there. You can sign up for our newsletter as well and get our emails. We also appreciate five star reviews on Apple that tells Apple that we're doing something right, that people like us and that they're listening. So we appreciate all five star reviews. Tommy, as always, sir, appreciate you. And we'll talk soon.

Tommy Welling: [00:32:03] Thanks. Bye. So you've heard today's episode and you may be wondering where do I start? Head on over to be fasting for life dotcom and sign up for our newsletter where you'll receive fasting tips and strategies to maximize results and fit fasting into your day to day life. While you're there, download

Dr. Scott Watier: [00:32:20] Your free Fast Start guide to get started today. Don't forget to subscribe on iTunes, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Make sure to leave us a five star review and we'll be back next week with another episode of Fasting for Life.

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