In this episode, Dr. Scott and Tommy discuss a classic study on overindulging after using restrictive eating. Trigger foods, fear of missing out, and black/white perfectionist thinking within a diet and weight loss journey often lead to unhealthy relationships with certain foods and undesirable outcomes in the future. They talk through how to prevent and correct this to find a better balance and easier success with fasting.
Fasting For Life Ep. 84
Dr. Scott Watier: [00:00:01] Hello, I'm Dr. Scott Watier,
Tommy Welling: [00:00:03] And I'm Tommy Welling, and you're listening to the Fasting for Life podcast, and
Dr. Scott Watier: [00:00:08] This podcast is about using fasting as a tool to regain your health, achieve ultimate wellness and live the life you truly deserve. Each episode is a short conversation on a single
Tommy Welling: [00:00:18] Topic with immediate, actionable steps. We cover everything from fat loss on health and wellness to the science
Dr. Scott Watier: [00:00:23] Of lifestyle design. We started fasting for life because of how fasting has transformed our lives, and we hope to share the tools that we have learned
[00:00:30] Along the way.
Dr. Scott Watier: [00:00:40] Hey, everyone, welcome to the Fasting for Life podcast. My name is Dr. Scott Watier. I'm here, as always, with my good friend and colleague, Tommy Welling. Good afternoon to you, sir. Hey, Scott. How are you doing? Great, my friend. We're going to dive into a few things in today's episode that I think are going to be impactful for every single person that's listening to this podcast. Now, that is a big, bold statement. And that's just kind of how I'm feeling right now because of the couple of realizations that we've had recently as we kind of continue to build our fasting for life and the conversations and the challenges and the courses and just all of the the things that we talk about this stuff all the time. I'm just going to come out and say it like this is literally less than what we used to in terms of our own journey, more of how can we go and impact more people. So just a shout out to you guys, the listeners. Again, if you knew the podcast, go back and listen to the first few episodes with Grace we ask. We appreciate all the five star reviews. Just incredible to think that we've almost six hundred thousand downloads now. We just broke a half million mark. So you guys that are repeat offenders that keep coming back for the goods, we appreciate you drop some reviews. We prefer the five star kind that tells the podcast Gods. I don't know how the algorithm, Apple, Google, whatever, what things the things work.
Dr. Scott Watier: [00:02:07] Right. We just know that the more feedback and the more reviews we get, they like that. And that says that what we're doing, they want to continue to push that out. And then that requires I mean, that results in more impact, which is why you and I decided to start this thing in the first place. So today's conversation I'm going to go back to it is going to be a continuation from last week's episode, which is not something that we do very often. We don't typically do a series or interviews or that type of like. And we're going to lay out four things this week and then four things next week and then four things the week after that, because we really want things to be actionable. But we got shut off the mikes after the last episode and we're like, well, wait a minute, there's a few things here that we really didn't go deep enough on and. I want to start there and then we're going to talk about a research article that involves milkshakes, and I'm going to mention the P word that ends in d.E.A and we're going to talk about it in a positive, encouraging way. So lots of fun stuff. And I think it's going to resonate with like I said, I think it's going to land something in this episode is no land for everybody that's listening.
Tommy Welling: [00:03:18] Yeah, I think that's that's great perspective, because as you said, when we shut off the lights, it was kind of like, OK, there's there's more here. When we were talking about long term success, how to build the fortified walls that that protect our results, our weight loss and our health results so that
Dr. Scott Watier: [00:03:38] So becoming the five percent. If you didn't listen to last week's episode, how do you become the five percent of people that actually keep all the hard work and weight you've lost off, which results in better health metrics and a better quality of life?
Tommy Welling: [00:03:51] Yeah, well, we literally turn on the microphones, like you said, for impact and to help people get results like we were looking for. And what's the point of getting the results if you're if you're not setting yourself up for success to to keep those results? So, you know, part of this conversation goes into like, how how do we have beneficial, healthy, long term relationships with certain foods that we that we enjoy, that we need, that we're going to crave, that we might be used to and
Dr. Scott Watier: [00:04:20] That might be part of our upbringing that might have social like traditional family ties. Like, you know, there's so many just different aspects of the connections to food that we have that it's just so important. That's why I turn the lights back on. Let's go let's go a little bit deeper.
Tommy Welling: [00:04:39] Right. And because some of this conversation comes from a point of balance, like we talk about life balance. And if if the plan doesn't fit within your life, it's never going to be a long term plan. It's never going to be something you can stick with because, you know, even if even if you have tremendous results, you know, you've lost 30 pounds or 50 pounds or, you know, you've regained your health, if you completely restricted something like a whole food group, let's say, or something that you love to to get there, it's it's going to be hard to find a healthy balance somewhere in the future, right?
Dr. Scott Watier: [00:05:22] Yeah. So a couple of things coming off of last week's. Conversation we talked about challenges the internal and external, extrinsic and intrinsic challenges, right, one of the challenges that was listed in the intrinsic as trigger foods. Right. So the fear there's two sides, the fear of missing out on something that you love and feeling deprived and then the fear of regaining and being around those foods and then eating the whole gallon of ice cream. Right. Right. So we don't want to ever live in a state of feeling deprived or in a state of fear of not being able to trust ourselves around those certain foods or food groups. And a big one that's very pervasive in the fasting world or in the world or in the the weight loss world is low carbohydrate. So so demonizing the entire food, the macro. We only have three macros. Right. We've got carbs. You got fat, we've got protein. And if you're new to Tom, his journey and kind of how we distill down the information and talk through it and try to critically think it and then turn it into actionable, like real life stuff. And then we go to it and we get feedback and just kind of that that's that life cycle of how we're continuing this journey. We don't subscribe to one way of eating. We don't subscribe to low carb versus paleo versus carnivore versus keto versus dirty.
Dr. Scott Watier: [00:07:02] Ketut, whatever. Insert whatever you want, vegan pescatore and whatever it is your lifestyle is your lifestyle, fasting for life. You know, it's the long term, right? That's what I love last week's convo about, you know, becoming the five percent that actually have the long term plan. And we don't want to just remove like carbohydrates and. The reason is, you know, even if we want to go for more of an analytical standpoint, the research and we've done an episode on this, the long term studies on diabetics and carbohydrate, low carb reduction. Not that I love the studies in the way that they actually created the meal plans, like the numbers were still kind of off in our opinion, right. I just remember being like, well, I'd like to see the protein on the higher the calves a little bit lower, the fat a little bit different. Right. But regardless, the overarching theme was that at the six month mark, there was decent results. But at the 12 month in the twenty four month mark, those diabetics on the low carb plan put all of the weight back on, plus more. Right. So the restriction or omission of an entire macro is not what we want. And it can create that that fear, that that emotion that that that we thought was necessary to kind of continue the conversation.
Tommy Welling: [00:08:25] Yeah, I like and we've we've known people to successfully use low carb or use a carnivore or a vegan diet. You know, like
Dr. Scott Watier: [00:08:36] There's keto diet. I did the first 30 days on keto is great. Sure.
Tommy Welling: [00:08:42] And some people find long term success with that, and that's that's great, like anything that works for you. Yeah. And you can integrate that with with your fasting lifestyle. And that's awesome, because it's it's fitting in your. You're finding, you know, results and fulfillment from your dietary perspective within within that that that realm, and so that's a good thing. But, you know, to to say that you need to do, let's say, carb restriction or very low carbohydrate diet to see results is is kind of crazy to me. And, you know, we see some of these things like popping up like in the very beginning of of challenges sometimes or or in in our community or continuity groups. We'll see some folks say something like, you know, carbs, carbs are good or carbs are bad. And like you said, to to put such a broad stroke on on one of the three macronutrients is is really overarching because carbs aren't the same. There's there's a thousand different types of carbohydrates in there. And like, you know, an apple is not the same as as a pizza, right?
Dr. Scott Watier: [00:09:53] Well, yeah. There's so many different ways to ingest carbs. Right. They all break down eventually into the same. The same things for our body to turn it into fuel, but here's a point for clarity and then we'll go into the milkshake study, which I'm calling it now, which sounds glorious. All right. Is that a study by Holt in nineteen ninety seven told that all looked at the insulin index, which is something that we talk about, the insulin index, the food index excuse me, insulin index, insulin friendly lifestyle. And this is the the outcome of the study was that beef and bread had the same insulin secretion in fish and rice had the same insulin secretion. So if we're just looking at the macro of carb versus protein, then in both of those cases your body had the same physiological effect. Now, I didn't go into the minutia of that study, but the point of me saying that is. We want to be focusing on the long term plan for you, the individual, so if you like to eat fish, then let's figure out a way for you to eat fish and rice and and or beef and, you know, let's say the P word that ends and you need to put that in into into the plan while you're getting the winds under your belt.
Tommy Welling: [00:11:17] Yeah, because if you if you get results, if you get those winds. But it was in the complete absence of like a whole food group or a certain type of food that that you enjoy and love and or have strong emotional connection to, then that's that's going to create almost like in like an elastic like a pent up demand for it where where eventually it's probably going to go like to get kind of overwhelming. And on the other side, it can also develop a sense of like a fear of that food group, because all of my results are now tied to never having that. And so I can't really see myself having it and enjoying the results. So we really have to find ways to work it in while we're having those results. So maybe small controlled dosages of the actual food while we're seeing the results might be a better balance point than than completely restricting or limiting them.
Dr. Scott Watier: [00:12:19] Yeah, it's interesting because the concept of eating clean and avoiding bad foods might actually make you fatter. That's really the underlying tone of what we're trying to get out here, is that it's hard to avoid those foods that you naturally enjoy if it's the family tie, the social aspect, the corn dog at the carnival that you grew up having, whatever it is, you know, it's it's been shown that most people who follow those restrictive diets do not succeed in the long term weight loss goal. So the key is to develop the sustainable habits over time and moderate the consumption of the foods you enjoy. So one of the things we talked about last week was in the monitoring piece is making sure that you're putting in the planning, the meal planning and putting those foods that you enjoy that that you don't want to feel deprived from into your routine. So because what will happen with the milkshake study is it showed that this was done by Herrman at all 19 going on here. Nineteen seventy five. Is that so the subjects. Fifty seven people were randomized to consume zero one or two milkshakes and this was after they had already eaten.
Dr. Scott Watier: [00:13:35] So these people were not hungry. They had a meal, they were presented with either zero milkshakes, one milkshake or two or two milkshakes, and then they had an ad lib ice cream tasting session. So this means you could just ingest as much ice cream as you wanted. So you had a meal. A couple hours went by. I like these studies. I want to go back to the studies in the 70s. They sound fun, right? And then you got to have as much ice cream as you wanted. Right. So what happened after after you had a meal a couple hours ago? Yeah. So here's your milkshake. You get zero one or two. And the people who had more restrictive dieting behaviors consumed almost twice the amount of ice cream after having two milkshakes compared to the group that had zero milkshakes. Well, so let's talk about pouring gasoline on the fire. But this was a clear, distinct line of the restrictive behaviors of the people that caused them to overindulge or binge on the foods that they had been restricting or limiting out of their long term plan.
Tommy Welling: [00:14:43] Yeah, yeah. That's that's another that's another side of the equation. That's the whole like I just had a little bit I slipped up, I went down the wrong path. A little bit of regret or guilt comes in. And I already had a milkshake or I already had two milkshakes. What's a little more ice cream now? Like I mean, there was so many times when I made those same food decisions where everything was great and was very black and white. And following the plan Monday through Thursday was going great. And Friday night it was kind of like, should we order a pizza or have something else? And then if we did while we were quote unquote, dieting, if we if we went ahead and got that on Friday, like look out Saturday and Sunday, like the diet didn't matter anymore until hopefully again Monday because it is like it's like a slippery slope.
Dr. Scott Watier: [00:15:40] Yet it's it's one of the things that over the years it's observing that the people that who try to avoid the bad foods typically end up caving and bingeing more than the people that just included them in moderation throughout the process, right? Mm hmm. And there was something I said that you were like, yeah, you've never said it that way before. Right. It was getting the wins under your belt. Yeah.
Tommy Welling: [00:16:06] Faster. Right. So getting the wins under your belt, it struck me as like I know you've said it probably a hundred times before, but you're literally getting the winds and those winds are coming in under your belt. And, you know, if you can get them in under your belt faster, then it it just propels you that much further forward. Like you get the psychological winds, what you start to get the dopamine hits that make you feel good, those endorphins come into and then that starts to replace those food based endorphins and dopamine hits that we can get so used to, especially with our modern engineered foods.
Dr. Scott Watier: [00:16:44] I really wanted that bad joke to flop, so I probably set you up there. So if you guys are listening that preferred Tommy apologies, because I'm sure we have our camp of followers like, all right, it's got to stop talking, let Tommy talk and vice versa some. So hopefully I mean, I like the visual of the winds under the belt. I never thought of it that way. So anyway, you may be listening to the episode being like, all right. Isn't fasting restrictive in itself by nature? Yeah, yeah, good point. And it is. To a certain degree, but the way that we see it playing out in the way that it worked for us was it allowed me to get back control and get off of the crazy weight loss roller coaster and regain train because it allowed me to use the other physiological benefits of fasting, which was the balancing of my hunger hormones, my INQ, improved sleep and decreased brain fog. The the the for me it was the stress component as well, where I would go to the foods and I would get out on a Wednesday and just go get the giant lunch and then have to take a nap to get back into the clinic. And what I didn't realize is my insulin resistance was building this entire time and throwing the scale and the equation even more out of whack, which made it the next time I tried to lose the 20 pounds.
Dr. Scott Watier: [00:18:19] Even more difficult. Right. And this is that cycle where weight loss resistance builds over time. So. Fasting was the thing that allowed me to quickly regain control and then, like I tell the story in one of the early episodes of when I first broke my first twenty four and forty eight hour fast, I ate everything that I normally ate, like in an hour and felt awful, like all the protein bars. And I had the popcorn in the grass fed burgers and then all of that stuff. Right. So fasting in itself is restrictive, but it's, it tips the scales into a manageable way to get off of the insulin resistance, weight loss, resistance, kind of merry go round and over time, making sure you can put those foods into your window. And even if you do fall off the wagon and go crazy with it, the time that you went without food allows your insulin to come down, allows your fat burning to kick up. And actually you can still see winds while not being as compliant as you probably should have been to get the same result.
Tommy Welling: [00:19:30] Yeah, and I feel like for most folks that that also slowly, at least slowly improves over time, too, because as you as you continue to get those winds and you continue to see what that level of of new found like control over the situation, whereas in the typical kind of dieting world, at least what you and I went through, we had a lot of learned helplessness as far as the scale and the actual diet and in losing the weight and keeping it off. And so it kind of became to where for me, lose a few pounds, but then slip up once and see it all just come back right so quickly that that it kind of became like, well, what am I what am I even putting all this thought into? Like, why why stay on that same track? So it became a lot easier to get the pizza or whatever it may be.
Dr. Scott Watier: [00:20:25] So fasting, I want to be clear, is is restrictive in its time, but it doesn't have to be restrictive in a macro food group or the foods that you love. And that's why I love the milkshake article. I don't know why I'm calling it that. But by Herman at all, the authors are saying less restrictive eaters respond better to internal hunger cues. While we know fasting helps balance those hunger cues out and eventually the hunger goes away. When you get more into a state of ketosis, you know, restrictive dietary patterns, you know, contribute to less self-control when around those foods that you've deprived yourself from. Right. Which is those so-called trigger foods. That's one of those intrinsic challenges that we talked about last week and the eating behavior that may be successful for short term when your willpower is high and your you know, you've gotten to that point of frustration where you like, fine, I'm just going to rip the darn Band-Aid off and do this thing. Right. Right. And then what's actually been found is that the less restrictive behaviors that focus around the healthy habit and the planning component, which is that self monitoring component that we talked about last week, has really been shown to set you up, set yourself up for four long term success. So if you haven't listened to the episode last week, go back and listen to it as it's an overview of trying to become that five percent of people that actually are able to keep the weight off once you've lost it.
Tommy Welling: [00:21:49] Yeah, I want to I want to clearly address something, because if you're if you're kind of in somewhere a little further along in your fasting journey and you're hearing this, you could be at a point where you've developed a bit of an aversion or or potentially even a fear of certain foods or certain food groups. And so we've touched on a little bit in the past. But but to to be encouraging towards a long term sustainable plan, start taking small pieces of those foods or food groups and working them back into your window. And you can start slowly at first, then you can increase that over time. But that's going to bring you to a point where you can see yourself long term, having a healthy relationship with that food or type of food and maintaining your long term results as well. So you can you can do that while you're still getting results now.
Dr. Scott Watier: [00:22:48] Yeah, that's that's a really good point. Sometimes, you know, we have we have a diverse listenership. So it's like sometimes, you know, the the the long term fasters, the people that have had success, sometimes the more beginner conversations don't really kind of resonate. And then sometimes the the beginner, the the experience I kind of had a break through a plateau for the beginner doesn't really fit. So I love the the the idea here that just like fasting can apply to any. Preferred eating style, right? Low carb Kaito, paleo carnivore, all that kind of stuff. The idea of building that healthy relationship, of not being restrictive and not feeling deprived is really a huge component that we did not go into enough last week, which is why we're here today, just to make sure that we're beginning with the end in mind with that long term goal in mind. So I just love the fact that, you know, this really applies to anyone in between. So I really appreciate that you brought that up to me. If you are newer to fasting, you can head over to the website, the Fasting for Life Dotcom.
Dr. Scott Watier: [00:23:56] You can download the Fast Start guide. It's six simple steps to put fasting into your day to day life. And Tommy, I think that pretty much rounds out for today. One main action step that I love that you just mentioned would be pick the food that you've been avoiding. And go eat it now. That doesn't mean by the bluebell gallon ice cream, that means go and do something for you because of the success and the results that you've made. Get the dopamine hit from a positive reinforcement with that food that you've had, the success, you've been good. You, you know, in a way deserve it because you're actually doing something that's right for you for the long term and not just continuing to restrict and limit your way through the process. So get those wins under your belt quickly. Absolutely. All right, Tommy, thanks so much, sir. Great conversation. Thank you guys so much for listening. If you feel inclined, drop us a review. Drop us a question, drop's comment. Love it. Appreciate you, Tommy, as always. Talk.
Tommy Welling: [00:25:03] Thank you. So you've heard today's episode and you may be wondering, where do I start? Head on over to the Fasting for Life
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