In today’s episode, Dr. Scott and Tommy discuss how different fasting regimens affect cardiovascular and autonomic functions, what is heart rate variability, and mistakes people make when they try fasting for the first time.
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Fasting For Life Ep. 189 Transcript
Hello. I'm Dr. Scott Watier.
And I'm Tommy Welling.
listening to the Fasting for Life podcast.
This podcast is about using fasting
as a tool to regain
your health, achieve ultimate wellness,
and live the life you truly deserve.
Each episode is a short conversation
on a single topic
with immediate, actionable steps.
We cover everything from fat loss
and health and wellness
to the science of lifestyle design.
We started fasting for life because of how
fasting has transformed our lives
and we hope to share the tools
that we have learned along the way.
welcome to the Fasting for Life podcast.
My name is Dr. Scott Water
and I'm here as always.
I'm a good friend and colleague,
Good afternoon to you, sir.
how are you doing? Fantastic, my friend.
Excited for today's
conversation on cardiovascular health
and its relationship to fasting.
So how do different fasting
Cardiovasc fuller and autonomic function?
And the cool connection point for us here
is we're going to go into something
that is more recently
the technology is allowed for it
to be tracked and it's something
that I've been looking at and working on.
And we're going to share with you
some insights into heart rate variability
and its connection
to cardiovascular disease and ultimately
things like type two diabetes
and insulin resistance.
So if you are new to the podcast,
that's a mouthful, but
we want to welcome you in your new
thank you for giving us a shot
and being part of your fasting journey.
If you want to learn
more about our journey
and how Tommy Nye's lives have been
transformed through the art of fasting
and how we apply it in our day to day
Head back to episode one.
Give it a listen.
It's where we share our story and welcome.
We really appreciate you joining us.
If you're an OG
of the Fasting for Life family,
thank you guys for continuing to listen in
and just growing this podcast to lengths
that I never would have imagined.
When we when we clicked record back on
episode one, we were incredibly grateful
for that as we rapidly
approached 3 million downloads here
and in about the last two
and a half years.
So each and every one of you listening
in, we are grateful for it
and we are incredibly grateful
for five star reviews.
They are our favorite kind.
So we want to give a quick shout out here
and we're going to be putting
this question into a future podcast Q&A.
But this is something that we love to
do, is to acknowledge you guys for
acknowledging us and telling the podcast
gods and goddesses that we deliver value.
So five star reviews,
they are our favorite,
if you feel so inclined, drop one for us
and here's a shout out.
Yeah. Marcelo Cello Says
five Stars Most comprehensive fasting
research and podcast.
I've been fasting for years using 16 eight
not seeing results,
but it does help with maintenance
and I don't have that much weight to lose.
This podcast helped me understand fasting
on a much deeper level and understand
how to get better results and also learn
so much about the health benefits.
To my question
that I can't find an answer to yet is
how do you meet nutritional needs in Oman?
Thanks so much, Julie. P So absolutely.
Thank you so much, Julie.
P And we will definitely be going over
It is a very good one in an upcoming
Q&A episode, so stay tuned.
Okay. I feel terrible.
Let's just let's do one minute
or less on that right there.
We're going to unpack this
because we've impacted
on different podcast episodes in the past.
So you will find it, search for it, search
fasting for life and
oh matter nutrition that will come up.
But big picture,
Oh, Matt, one meal a day can be used
as a fat loss strategy
or a maintenance strategy.
So it depends on you and where you're at.
Have you been losing weight?
You said you don't have a lot to lose.
So when we are using oh, Matt as a fat
loss strategy, we we want to be focusing
on whole food sources
and opening up your window enough
where you can get satiated
and excited about the foods that you eat.
So just a couple of things to think about.
Are you using it for maintenance?
Are you wanting to lose weight?
What's your most recent experience, Ben?
Has the scale been moving
and how do you feel about the foods,
what kind of foods you're eating
and putting into your window?
Are they nutrient dense?
Are they whole foods or are they more
easy access type foods?
So go ahead.
One other one other point
I wanted to make was the difference
between a meal and a window,
because moment one meal a day
rather than a window, even if it's a short
one, one hour or maybe 2 hours.
That can also be a good distinction
to make because it can, you know,
like she's alluding to here,
it can be more difficult to get in,
you know, 100% of my caloric needs
or all of the nutrition that I need
if I'm not looking to lose weight
within one sit down meal, that might be 30
or maybe 45 minutes versus a longer
window, you're going to have to open
that window up.
There's no way there's not a lot of people
that are going to be at a healthy weight
building, lean muscle, exercising,
living to their full potential.
Not a lot of people are going to use like
I'm going to have one plate here
and that's going to be anything
that's going to be
everything I have day after day forever.
So that's a really good distinction
point there. Tommy.
I appreciate that. Yeah, cool. All right.
But we can
we can go into a few more layers
on that question in the future as well.
If you're looking
for more insights into that
and you want to use Walmart as a fat
loss strategy, go grab the blueprint
to fasting for fat loss in the show notes
because it talks about macros and calories
and what your plate should look like, etc.
That's our 20 page PDF.
You can just click the show notes.
We'll zoom it across the interwebs
into your email inbox for you
and that should give you
some more insights as well.
Appreciate the five star review.
As we said, let's get into today's combo.
How do different fasting regimens impact
cardiovascular and autonomic functions?
So I want to start big picture.
This is a study that was done recently
in February of 2023,
and it's the effects of different
fasting interventions on
cardiac autonomic modulation in healthy
It's a secondary outcome
analysis of the EDF trial.
And what I love about
this is where they their starting point.
So when we talk about losing weight
and we talk about getting healthy
and having lab work and blood work
that's in ideal ranges
and living a long life
without worrying about disease or blood
sugar issues or diabetes
or we know that eight out of the top
why people lose their life for all cause
mortality here in the United States
are related to insulin resistance
or weight loss resistance in some form
Fasting has the ability to decrease
insulin and reverse insulin resistance
incredibly quickly and much more simply
than the old eat less and move more model.
So big picture fasting interventions
become much more common.
So what's their effect on cardio
Because we know
that cardiovascular disease and diabetes
and metabolic syndrome
all go hand in hand right?
So it's scarcely analyzed
as they admit up until this point.
So the aim of the study is to
scientifically investigate the influence
of fasting on your core
development of cardio metabolic health.
It's mouthful said that earlier. Right.
your autonomic cardiac response.
And what that is, is your autonomic
which regulates involuntary
including heart rate, blood pressure,
respiration, digestion, sexual arousal.
It contains three
anatomically distinct divisions.
Sympathetic and parasympathetic
are the main two.
So you can think of this as fighter
flight, rest and digest.
One of the things when we're talking
about the autonomic cardiac response
is that that has a direct relationship
to what's now being tracked
by a lot of these new technology out there
like apple watches
and woops and or rings garmin's, ET, etc..
And it's this
this term called heart rate variability
and heart rate variability measures
the variance in time
between your heartbeats
while you're asleep.
It's a great indicator of how well
your body can adapt to its environment
and perform higher signals,
better overall health and fitness.
However, it's very individualized based on
age, gender, lifestyle, fitness, etc.
So trends in r V can be a really powerful
because we know that HIV is connected
to all cause mortality
when it comes to cardiovascular events.
So lower HIV means increased
chance of cardiovascular issues.
We also know that in populations
that have insulin resistance,
there's studies here in the US
and also studies in Japan,
specifically the Toon health
study out of Japan is reduced.
HIV is directly associated with insulin
resistance and lower insulin sensitivity,
and it's also linked to nervous
when it comes to long
term low levels of HIV
or long term cardiovascular
and autonomic dysregulation patterns.
Right. Meaning abnormal EKGs.
This is incredible because HIV
is something that even five years ago
I wasn't hearing anything
about the devices that could measure it.
It wasn't being talked about by by anybody
who was actually seeing the data
or by many people
who were actually seeing the data.
So now more and more research
is coming out
as far as how important this
you know, this this metric is.
And it's becoming easier
and easier to wear.
a lot of folks are wearing wearables
but still don't know what to make of this
that they're seeing on their data.
So the cool thing is to know that, again,
there's not a perfect number for your HIV,
but seeing the trend in it,
if you're trying to work on improving
health, lower weight
increase insulin sensitivity,
increase your your cardiac health,
you're working on building muscle,
you know, all of these kind of things.
If you're seeing changes in your RV view,
that's going up over time,
your moving average is going up.
That is a very good positive sign.
You're making change. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's a really cool thing to be like.
Well, the scale is not moving well.
There's a lot of other things
that we should be looking at too,
and a lot of things actually have
to happen first before the scale can move
or might be happening
when the scale is not moving.
Maybe I'm maintaining,
maybe I'm at like a momentary plateau,
a momentary maintenance,
and instead of being frustrated
or disheartened by that,
if I see other things are improving,
that can be all the reason to continue
to lean into the process, continue
to do what I'm doing, rather than going,
Oh, maybe it's time to change something.
No, no, no.
You might be way on the right track.
You know, if you understand this
a little bit better.
So I think this is really cool.
I love where they're coming from
with this study, too.
And first and foremost,
one of the big takeaways for them was that
there were no adverse events with the
fasting schedules that they studied.
And the reason I say that
first and foremost is because
sometimes will have people express concern
about fasting, comes from their doc,
comes from their loved ones,
They may have a heart condition,
they are concerned about the way they feel
when they start fasting.
Never mind the hunger,
but you are going to be having big changes
in your hydration levels and your insulin
coming down, which then allows your body
to lose the excess water
and retention that you might be having.
And you're going to have imbalanced
potential electrolytes and transition
from a sugar burner into a fat burner
and ketone production sometimes.
What is that?
Yeah, exactly. This type of stuff.
So you'll feel sometimes
maybe a little fuzzy or you'll feel
some people will say,
I just feel different when I'm fasting.
And sometimes you'll feel like
almost like a little
like a little palpitation, right?
And most times that is just a hydration
or electrolyte thing.
And it's not an overall concern
when it comes to the heart.
Now, if you have a heart condition
and you're going to start doing
longer, fast and intermittent fasting
windows, please talk to your doctor.
Let them know what you're doing
and have them on the same page as you
when you start doing this.
But one of the cool conclusions was
there were no adverse events.
When you're looking at intermittent
fasting windows, 20 hour fasting
windows and ADF, which is 36 to 40 2
to 48 hour fast, depending on
when the last bite of food was ingested.
When you are alternating a feeding day
versus a fasting day.
Yeah, yeah. Good point.
And you know, it's it's also cool to note
that when you take those different types
of fasting approaches
and put them into a study like this,
you start to make some headway into like
really, really uncovering some cool stuff
because we're going to suggest
some alternatives are some next levels.
You know, for a study like this,
after we after we kind of go through it.
But there already were
was a nice little mix of fasting
scheduling within the study,
some of the most common ones
that are research based too.
So ADF alternate day fasting, 68 time
eating or TRT, which is your most common
intermittent fasting window.
And then 20 dash four which I've also seen
as the warrior fast, right?
I don't know why.
Yeah, I think we looked it up one time
and I still can't remember.
So time we say it's hardcore. Hardcore.
Yeah. There you go.
They're looking at those
and the resting heart rate.
So the primary outcomes were EKG and HRB.
Now who's studied
healthy population, 16 men, 11 women.
How is it study? Well, eight weeks.
And they were assigned to one of three
ADF 68 or 20 DASH four.
The results were not surprising
in the fact that there were no changes in
any of the measured EKG parameters or HIV
between the different fasting groups.
Secondarily, there was a cool change.
That resting heart rate
decreased by eight beats per minute
in the 24 group.
So 20 hours of fasting, 4 hours of eating
and the ADF group.
So it dropped as well in the 68 group,
but not statistically significant
according to their research.
Let's unpack what we would like to have
seen in this study versus what we saw.
So the results were cool.
A decrease or a delta in heart rate
with the 20 dash four being the greatest
at almost eight beats per minute.
you got some change, but not as great.
ADF only dropped, what,
two and a half beats per minute.
I would have like to see a control group.
I think that would have been nice.
I see what you know right?
Yeah, I think it's, it's probably
because they started off with a very small
sample size here, maybe because they're
leaning into something very, very new.
You know, as far as fasting research goes.
So seeing what a control group
would actually experience here, ad libido
and just just eating throughout the day
as they normally would,
you know, another thing
would be a larger sample size, because
that would give more statistical power
so that you could potentially detect,
you know, variance
between the different groups here.
That would have been nice.
And another thing I would do
would be to add in something
maybe a cleaner 36 or 48 hour fast,
something that gets to a little bit
a little lower insulin response,
more of a complete transition
from glycolysis, from sugar
burning endocytosis into the fat
burning zone where you can have
a bit of an increase in adrenaline,
but also a very, very low
drop in insulin and blood sugar.
That would have been very interesting
for me to see as well.
Yeah, it's the one thing here
and this is just a jumping off point.
The one thing
here, though, is their research topic.
This first one, as they say,
the scientific knowledge of intermittent
fasting strategies that indicate potential
clinically preventative approaches
to occurring metabolic disease
and obesity in healthy young subjects.
So I would like to see this done
dysfunction subjects, right,
like I was a few years ago.
So let's look at the changes
that we'll see because they go through
all of the science, right?
time, restricted eating ads.
If they go through it, they go through the
toe dash for an intermittent fasting.
Has gained a lot of attention lately
because it's been shown
to have increased fat oxidation,
it's been shown to improve
and have cardioprotective effects.
It's been shown in men and women to have
weight loss and fat mass reduction.
It's been shown to reverse
insulin resistance, decrease
blood pressure, systolic and diastolic.
We've had dozens and dozens
and dozens of folks reversed
diabetes and pre-diabetes
using fasting protocols.
So it was interesting that they did this
in a healthy young study
where I would like to see it
in the future done in in the group
that it would be more apt
to need to use it, if that makes sense.
Yeah. Yeah, it absolutely does.
And what if they had a calorie restriction
group to right now that be good. No.
Yeah that would be kind of cool
and you know
thinking about the control group
some more they did have the 68 group
which was a very very small
drop in in heart rate beats per minute.
So it's kind of interesting.
It's also kind of telling to Julie P's
point earlier with the five star review
about how 16 eight
was helpful for her maintenance but
wasn't really moving the fat loss needle,
well, apparently it might not be moving
the HIV needle very much as well,
which is really good to know,
but also can be an indication.
You know what, I like you to just push
the fasting needle just a little bit more.
But also, like you said,
what's on your plate
and what are those other things
like the sleep and the stress,
or am I am
I addressing those things as well?
Because those things are going to factor
into heart rate variability as well.
Yeah, and that's really
the point of this was so cool study.
Never seen anything like it
before. Wanted to mention it.
No adverse effects.
Great in the fact
that you can actually decrease
your resting heart rate,
which is fantastic.
I just remember whenever
we'd go in for my wife's pregnancy visits
and they'd take our blood pressure
and it would be like
Like, then her pulse would be like 52,
And incredible sign
that you are in a really great
when it comes to your cardiovascular
when you've got numbers like that.
Like I'm like, okay, what
I would give to have that I'm working
on, it's getting better.
So the heart rate variability
is one of these things that I think is
if we have access to it, let's use it
a really strong correlation
between low HIV, like we mentioned,
and increased cardiovascular
risk and insulin resistance,
which then leads to diabetes
and all of the metabolic syndrome
and related metabolic issues.
So HIV personally has been something
I've been working on
and since over the last six months
my HIV has increased 26%.
Wow. Nice. Interesting.
The highest HIV that I've ever seen.
A single data point. Right.
So we're not going to extrapolate this
into anything grandiose.
A single data point that I've seen,
the top three have been
just now last night,
after a three day fast,
I'm going I'm finishing up a 72 hour fast,
which I have not done in a while tonight
So I had my highest number
singled out a point right.
few months back when I did a 48 hour fast,
that turned into a seven and a half day
fast on day three, four and five,
I had a tie.
And then my second and third highest
HIV data points that I've ever had.
And since then I've trended up 26%.
So to your point about these
fasting windows that were studied,
sometimes just like mad as a maintenance
strategy versus a weight loss strategy.
MM You have to kind of push the envelope
a little bit.
It's no surprise to me
that when I'm fasting,
my body is repairing
and my insulin is low,
that my autonomic nervous system,
my fight or flight response is less,
that my body is healing,
that I am getting more restful rest
and recovery sleep,
that my HIV would go up.
Yeah. Now can I do 72 hour fast forever?
No, I wouldn't recommend doing them
back to back to back to back to back.
But it shows that HIV can be affected
lack of exercise and dietary choices.
You just reminded me
with those data points
whenever I was more on the weight gain
part of my my life journey years back
and when we would, let's say,
like get a pizza,
like a pizza night,
my wife would always talk about
increased heart rate afterwards,
like going into the evening hours.
If you think about it, like,
a lot of people are more sensitive to that
I never really felt that.
I kind of felt like a little amped up.
But I think my insulin response
was so high that it kind of counteracted
some of that, whereas she didn't
have the insulin resistance that I did,
even though she was kind of slowly
putting on weight as well.
But if you think about it,
that's the exact opposite of heart
rate lowering and this increase
in heart rate variability right here.
So just, you know, feeling that effect
potentially one meal at a time
can be like how my heart rate
variability is getting worse over time
rather than improving
like we're talking about here.
I remember and this still happens,
but I used to sit on the couch
in our little apartment back in the day.
We do CrossFit on Fridays together
and then I would have clinic Saturday
mornings. We go home.
We usually get barbecue or something
on the way home and eat
and then have a couple of drinks,
watch a movie, hang out, right?
She would fall asleep on the couch
and she would always say, My goodness,
I can feel your heartbeat,
like through your chest.
And back then, I hadn't thought about this
for a while until you just said it.
Back then, I never really knew. Right.
This is ten, 11 years ago,
But if I have a night where, let's say
I trying to think of the last time I did
this might have been a few months ago
where actually ate
at a mexican restaurant,
which I normally don't do anymore
because I just don't like the way it makes
it makes me feel.
And we had I had a couple of beers, right?
I don't really drink much beer anymore
or drink much at all.
Just with the season of life
were in and beer plus Mexican restaurant.
Yeah I know my recovery is going to be red
and I know my heart rate
variability is going to be in the tank
and it's always a warning sign
that's like your heart rate was seven
beats per minute higher than normal.
And I'm like, Whoa, yeah, right.
So increase heart rate,
insulin resistance, all of that stuff
absolutely is going to affect your sleep
and rest and recovery.
So, Harry, variability
isn't one of these things.
You can just look at one thing
and be like, Oh man, yeah, one night
it was up, next day it's down.
It's something you want to see those
trends in timing that you were mentioning.
So what can help your stress levels,
What can help your sleep,
What can get you feeling better
for you to want to be motivated
and start exercising
and making some more healthy food choices.
I was listening to a recent podcast
Oh, by the way, the answer is fasting
can do all of those things.
I was listening to a recent interview
and one of the biggest fasting mistakes
that they mentioned.
So the question was what is, you know,
what are one of the few things
that you see people do in
terms of fasting mistakes when they come
to fasting for the first time?
And the answer was just
it was really, really well stated
and really powerful food choices.
Wait, before fasting. But why? Tommy?
Yeah. Can I just eat whatever I want?
I'm fasting, right?
Cause if you make a few better
food choices, it can prepare your body
to do things better and easier
and make the process
a lot simpler and a lot less frustrating.
And a couple of those food choices
that were mentioned were cleaning up
some of the oils
in the foods that you choose doing more,
more whole foods like more foods at home,
which includes your carbohydrates
being more natural based carbohydrates
rather than the highly processed ones.
And then the other one was getting into
those those actual process ingredients.
Are your foods just full of kind of fake
fake ingredients, chemicals
and other things like that
that make it easier to prepare or,
you know, just
just commercially available?
Yeah, more craveable those kind of things
that if you just kind of started there
with like those three or four main points,
that it really prepares you
for fasting a lot better
because as you clean up your fasting too,
or as you start
extending the time of your fasts
like we've been talking
about throughout this episode,
that can help balance out the cravings.
It can help make the process
a little bit more intuitive.
It can help decrease the likelihood
or the crave ability of that Friday night,
just like fast food pizza craving,
even if it's a really, really strong habit
when you start to clean up the fasting
a little bit and start to clean up
a few of those food choices,
it can make that feel a lot less tempting.
You start to realize
how it's going to make you feel,
and most of the time
you're feeling a lot better than that.
And like you with the Mexican food
or with the beer,
it's like you don't really
want to feel that way again.
It's a lot less tempting, right? Yeah.
I just love the big picture of this, too,
in this lifestyle adaptation.
I mean, in the study,
which was just a jumping off point for us,
they mentioned the limitations, right?
We didn't really have any tracking
for physical activity or daily habits,
you know, lifestyle
habits, sleeping habits,
etc., which are all things
that have a drastic effect on each RV.
But you were just talking about that
feeling like, what is that, that long term
feeling that you're trying to get
where you want to feel better,
have more energy and more confidence
fit in your clothes,
look better in a bathing suit, whatever
those things are for you, they're all
in the individual answers
to the same questions right?
Sure. Fasting has the power
to fit really whatever lifestyle
you want to live, typically.
I mean, if you're a diabetic and trying
to reverse diabetes and don't start
continue to eat refined, processed carbs,
you know, limit those.
But that food choice component, we hear so
often that the fasting is the easy part.
It's the relationship with the food
that's the more difficult part
and that those default habit patterns
that we have.
So fasting, most people come to it, a
lot of people come to it for weight loss.
I came to it because I had tried
everything else and failed miserably,
Spent lots of money hiring nutritionists
and specialists and doing testing
and all this kind of stuff over the years.
And it's gotten to a point
now where I don't look so much
at the fasting as what I'm working on,
but for me, I'm working on my sleep habits
which directly affect my RV
and I'm visceral fat.
So if you're new, you don't
have to worry about that stuff right now.
Yeah, but it's empowering that
there are other drivers at play here
that don't revolve around
counting calories, tracking macros
and stepping on that scale.
Yeah, fasting goes way deeper than that
and can be a much more powerful tool
As we can see, even though
this is a short study in healthy subjects.
Without a lot of they just said like
I just mentioned what the limitations
we still saw a considerable decrease
in the 20 dash four
when it comes to our two hour heart rate,
which is something we want to see,
a healthy heart rate, a lower heart rate,
and an increased heart rate
variability can be really powerful.
And you know, the 72 hour fast,
I'm doing it with a couple of gentlemen
and one of them also wears a whip.
And he text me, he's like,
wow, third night of my fast
and it's the highest HIV
I've ever had again.
I'm not surprised.
Yeah, right. Me neither. Yeah.
Yeah, I want to see more data like this.
So, you know, I'm hoping
that they continue to lean into this and,
you know, maybe take some thought on on
what version two is going to look like,
because I think some more really promising
results are right around the corner
And I want to see how those kind
of differentiate and extrapolate
across more time and more patient
populations like we talked about too.
So for one or two action steps,
it would be
looking at your nutritional window
and your nutrition opportunity.
Yeah, and maybe it's time
to vary up your fasting window
because the second mistake from
that interview that I was listening to
that was mentioned was picking
one fasting window and sticking to it
and we have a resource,
we have a resource the fast
our guide to one meal a day, right?
You got to start somewhere, okay, sure.
You got to take some action.
You got to pick a meal.
That's the most
the easiest for you to apply, right?
So most people pick dinner. Great.
Is it working Well? No.
You got to play around with it.
Just like all of these individual health
metrics we talked about and decisions
they need to make in today's episode.
The second mistake is sticking
to the same window.
So in the spirit of being cheesy
heart rate variability,
let's vary your fasting window
and try some new things.
If you're looking for what
that could look like,
you can head to the show notes,
you can click the link.
I mentioned it earlier, the blueprint
to fasting for fat loss Tommy
And just know that this is a lifestyle
So it takes repetitions,
it takes trial and error.
But fasting, as you know,
as we know, such a powerful tool.
Tommy Yeah, it absolutely is.
And if you're not really sure
or if you're, if you're interested in
looking at what your heart rate
variability is as I am, because I don't
actually have data for mine,
but I might pick up a route
based on this information right here
so I can kind of track that over time.
I can talk to this guy.
I don't like tracking more things
just for fun,
but when they matter, they matter,
So if I want the needle to move,
then then let me actually get a way
to kind of gauge that needle.
So I absolutely love this.
And cleaning up what's in your nutrition
opportunities is great advice
no matter where you are
in your fasting journey.
you know, clean up your next plate and,
you know, set some good boundaries
and and set your next timer.
Yep, yep, yep. I love it.
All right, Tommy, as always,
appreciate the conversation.
Head to the Shownotes. Click the link
for the blueprint Fasting Fat Loss.
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Breaking the first two rules of fasting.
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Come join us, get your question answered.
the conversation and we'll talk to you.
Thank you, sir. Perfect. Thank you. Bye.
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